Rip Van Winkle: surprise, not a poem!
Irving is unquestionably an Early Romantic writer. Finally, a narrative, rather than a poem to read!
Rip Van Winkle’s 20 year torpor has this supernatural quality that’s not really present in Freneau, Wheatley, etc. Irving does, however, produce the same kind of vivid imagery in his descriptions of Catskill Mountain and the town. This clear description succeeds in providing a dramatic contrast between the rural English colony that Rip knows to the urban political independent country that Rip stumbles into 20 years later.
I’m guessing that that was Irving’s purpose? To compare how different America became after the Revolution? I’m going to say that change is one of the motifs in this piece. Rip’s daughter, once “ragged and wild”, is transformed into a mother, the town changes, Rip himself is physically changed…
However, Rip’s son, remains unchanged, turning out the exact same way everyone predicted he would. Does this represent something, if it represents anything at all?
Overall, I liked this piece. It creatively told us of change and was told with a story-telling voice, which made it more enjoyable.
On a completely unrelated note: Can someone explain how “golden” and “crown” are Biblical references in Wheatley’s “To His Excellency General Washington”? I...still can’t see their relation to the Bible.
Rip Van Winkle’s 20 year torpor has this supernatural quality that’s not really present in Freneau, Wheatley, etc. Irving does, however, produce the same kind of vivid imagery in his descriptions of Catskill Mountain and the town. This clear description succeeds in providing a dramatic contrast between the rural English colony that Rip knows to the urban political independent country that Rip stumbles into 20 years later.
I’m guessing that that was Irving’s purpose? To compare how different America became after the Revolution? I’m going to say that change is one of the motifs in this piece. Rip’s daughter, once “ragged and wild”, is transformed into a mother, the town changes, Rip himself is physically changed…
However, Rip’s son, remains unchanged, turning out the exact same way everyone predicted he would. Does this represent something, if it represents anything at all?
Overall, I liked this piece. It creatively told us of change and was told with a story-telling voice, which made it more enjoyable.
On a completely unrelated note: Can someone explain how “golden” and “crown” are Biblical references in Wheatley’s “To His Excellency General Washington”? I...still can’t see their relation to the Bible.
posted by L Lazarow | 3:55 PM
15 Comments:
I was unclear in my explanation of the influence of the Bible reflected onto Wheatley's poetry.
For one, a lot of the Christian references were drawn along parallels with the mythological references we discussed in class. Example : In line 7, she writes "See the bright beams of heaven's revolving light." This could represent, in the world of mythology, the circumlocution of Apollo - god of the sun. While at the same time, representing the Gospel (for which the sun symbolized in the Bible - salvation and the Kingdom of Righteousness.)
Any reference to "gold" or "golden" : representative of the divine nature (the only nature that has immortality).
"crown" : immortality. We see a lot of references to the crown within Revelations.
With knowing what each represent, try and make a parallel between them and the mythological references. Other symbols to consider within this poem as a Biblical reference : Earth, hills, olive, wind (Eolus).
Hope this helps/clears up!
Side note : Wheatley was heavily influenced by Pope and Milton as well (both rich in religious and mythological references). Their works seemed to impact Wheatley's. Her "imitation" of this accepted form of poetic excellence showed that blacks were not spiritually and intellectually inferior to whites.
Golden I guess refers to the gold light that surrounds Jesus? I'm not a Bible expert so correct me if I'm wrong
Crown I'm pretty sure would refer to the crown of thorns Jesus wore. Or, more indirectly, referring the the divine right of kings. (crown -> king -> divine right of kings -> God -> Bible, etc)
I'm going to slightly disagree w/ your (tina's) analysis on the motif of change.
A big aspect for preromantic writers was heritage and culture. By comparing Rip Sr. with Rip Jr. and contrasting Rip Sr. with his daughter, it shows what types of heritage each child gets. Rip Jr. inherits his father's laziness when dealing with his own responsibilities.
I think the whole heritage aspect comes out when you realize that Rip van Winkle and all the other surviving members of the village will pass on the cultures and customs of the village from 20 years ago. I think Irving is trying to say that while the newly independent states have broken the "political bands," they will inevitably still be descendants from the United Kingdom. (Those from the UK anyway)
One last little tidbit...
Do you think that while the nine-pin game represents thunder, that the thundering sound from the rolling ball also represents the gunshots and cannonfire of the revolution?
Probably a little too much reading into it but it's a possibility :P
I agree with Albert in that the children were more an example of heritage in Rip Van Winkle. I would also like to agree with Tina in how Irving's purpose was to compare how America changed after the Revolution.
Albert, to add to your question. I understand where your going with the ball also sounding like the cannons from the revolution. It makes sense to me. The only thing is that at the end of the story, the elderly man who justified Rip's story said that the story of people playing nine pins sounding like thunder had been around for many years. If that is the case, then would it still make sense for the balls to symbolyze the cannon fire? I'm not quite sure.
Kaitlyn-
Yes, it should still work. The only way that I can think of that would make it not work would be if that that myth/legend/whatever was around before the revolution. If the ninepins reference was thought up by Irving, then it's a possibility that it represents the Revolution.
Here are some strong examples of romanticism in Rip Van Winkle:
Firstly, Irving glorifies nature by saying that the Catskill Mountains "light up like a crown of glory" when "they will gather a hood of gray vapors about their summits..in the last rays of the setting sun." He also says that the Hudson moves "on its silent but majestic course." Irving not only glorifies nature for its beauty, but also points out that it is permanent, even when times change. He says,"there stood the Catskill Mountains--there ran the silver Hudson at a distance--there was every hill and dale precisely as it had always been," showing the refude to Rip Van Winkle that at least nature was the same. Although romanticists glorified nature and its beauty, they also emphasized its destructive nature. For eaxmple, Irving refers to Rip Van Winkle's house and the gentleman Rip meets in the woods as "weather-beaten," showing nature's strong, destructive powers.
Secondly,Irving demonstrates the romantic characteristic of relativism in morals, and rejects the Neoclassic emphasis on Truth. For example, Rip asks himself, "what excuse shall I make to Dame Van Winkle?" This statement challenges strict morals because it excuses lies when a henpecked husband comes up with them against a cruel wife.
Thirdly, Irving demonstrates the romantic theme of giving into emotion and letting feelings prevail over reason. Rip lets his senses be "overpowered" by the liquor. Also, the fact that Irving mentions that "it is a common wish of all henpecked husbands in the neighborhood, when life hangs heavy on their hands, that they may have a quieting draught of Rip Van Winkle's flagon," shows giving into emotions and putting reason aside are acceptable.
Lastly, when Irving describes how Nicholas Vedder's opinions can be undertood by how quickly and angrily he smokes, it reminds me of a volcano. Perhaps I'm reading into this illustration too much, but faster and heavier smoke from a volcano means it may erupt, and Vedder's smoking heavily and agrily shows disapproval and stirred emotions. If this comparison is valid, then it shows that people are very much like nature, which romanticists believed.
--Caroline
I think that one of the points of of Irving's tale is to help establish an American identity. Irving writes the story from the viewpoint of the common (more or less) man so that all americans can identify with the character of Rip Van Winkle or at least be able to see the parallels of this man to someone in their own life.
Readers will pity Rip Van Winkle for having no purpose, being unable to support himself and family, and for not understanding what the Americans fought for when he finally returns after 20 years. Readers will pity him because he feels displaced in a town where every resident shares the common experience of the revolution.
Americans will further be bonded together by reading this tale because they will embrace the fact that America is a place of mystery (represented by the Catskills...) that cannot be understood unless you come and experience it for yourself.
It really stood out to me the way Rip's wife was depicted in this story; coincidentally, it was also my group's question today. Rip was extremely bothered by his wife and thus she was portrayed as the "nagging wife" who had a controlling nature. This is a common stereotype placed on women. Just because men decide that they "need their space" and tend to let go of their committed responsibilities (no offense guys), women shouldn't be accused of being annoying when they "get in the way" of their spouses' supposedly deserved freedom. As a matter a fact, I believe his wife had every right to use a "sharp tongue" with Rip since he refused to take care of his own family but always jumped at the opportunity to help others. Obviously family wasn't a main element in his "universe of obligation" (haha Theresa). The death of Rip's wife marked his indpendence. It was a burden taken off his shoulders. It seemed more fitting for him to be the benevolent, altruistic bachelor of the village from the start if you ask me; a "family man" was just not in him.
I also would like to add that Rip's wife was the one enforcing order. She compensated for the ignorance Rip had toward his family. Thus perhaps her death also marked the end of all hope for order in the immediate Winkle family.
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I almost completely agree with Ranna's analysis of Dame Van Winkle and Rip Van Winkle's relationship. I do, however, have one small reservation: I don't believe that Dame Van Winkle's death "marked the end of all hope for order in the immediate Winkle family."
When Rip Van Winkle (the elder) returned to the village after his 20 year slumber, he found that his daughter was a calm, orderly and industrious woman who had married an industrious man. Taking that into account, Rip's immediate family (i.e., his daughter) was obviously able to maintain order after her mother died.
On a side note, it's interesting that even without having his father's influence for the majority of his childhood and adolescence, Rip Van Winkle (the younger) managed to develop a personality very similar to that of his father. I don't know what the significance of that is, if any, but I'm interested in hearing someone's take on it. Perhaps it has something to do with fate or human/genetic nature over nurture/environment, but that's probably a bit of a stretch.
--Danielle
I do not see Rip Van Winkle as some lazy guy who can't handle the pressures of supporting a family. I think he hates his wife because she is evil and bossy. He doesnt want to support the devil! The only ones who suffer from this are the children. Although the daughter makes out very well and seems to have a hold of herself, Rip Jr. is a spitting image of his father.
Both the Rip's are unmotivated not lazy. Rip Sr. had a horrible wife that made him want to fish all day and do oddjobs for neighbors than work on the farm and support her. Rip Jr. saw his father at an early age act the very way he acts now, i think he just mimics cause thats the only thing he ever knew about his father.
Rip Van Winkle would shrug his shoulders, look up, and shake his head. Dame Van Winkle was more of an annoyance than a lover to Rip. So he did the only thing that seemed to make sense stay away from the Devil! Away from the farm, away from the house, away from her. His only fault was not thinking about his dear little children.
Love,
Scott P
First, I'd like to congratulate Elizabeth on being creative enough to compare Dame Van Winkle's death to the "death" of the controlling England. It's a very interesting metaphor and fairly workable, although I suppose it gives England a mixed reputation if you impose the kind interpretation of Dame Van Winkle that I would endorse.
I'm assuming that Scott's post was tongue-in-cheek, but I still think it merits a response. I agree with this: everything written about Dame Van Winkle within "Rip Van Winkle" was negative. Nevertheless, when viewed objectively, nothing substantial is brought up to defame Dame Van Winkle's character.
Admittedly, Rip Van Winkle isn't lazy. The problem that Dame Van Winkle has with her husband is that he isn't motivated to support or help his family, but rather, to help others. Again, admittedly, Dame Van Winkle does come off as a nag; however, it must be taken into account that she was dealing with a husband who was only industrious when helping people outside of his immediate family. Dame Van Winkle couldn't exactly forge a living for her husband and children all by herself; it certainly wasn't the social norm in the mid-1700s.
Though Dame Van Winkle's methods of convincing Rip to work weren't all that effective, nobody can definitively state that a more effective way to encourage Rip to provide for his family existed. Dame Van Winkle could be seen as bossy, but perhaps her "bossiness" was necessary to get Rip to do the little work he did do for his family.
From a modern perspective, I would interpret Rip's "responses" to his wife's demands as completely nonresponsive. Sighing, shaking his head, and raising his hands in the air never addressed the issues that his wife brought up. Just a little something I found interesting.
I have a question about something that seems to keep popping up not only in the blog but in class. How is Dame Van Winkle's death a symbol for the dissolution of the Van Winkle home?
When Rip Van Winkle comes back home and sees his daughter and meets his grandson, he is instantly taken into their home. Her husband is a hard worker and then Rip Sr. discovers that Rip Jr. is working for his son-in-law. I just assumed that the daughter picked up where her mother left off when she died, especially with the voice, which Rip Sr. recognized immediately.
In response to Rachel's question, I don't think Rip Van Winkle's daughter takes the place of her mother. The main point of Dame Van Winkle's character was her tyrannical nature and her death's subsequent symbolization of the change between pre- and post-Revolutionary times (I think). The Dame's daughter is similar to her in many ways, but definitely lacks the former's nagging, dictatorial component. I can't quite grasp the relevance of family order being maintained after Rip's awakening, though. Could someone explain it?
In line with Danielle's comment, I think that in a modern context (one that Scott is apparently unaware of) Dame Van Winkle would be completely sympathized with. In class I used the example of the Dame going on Oprah with the episode's theme being "My husband's a lazy slob who helps everyone but me." (Really, don't you think Rip would get totally booed?) This sort of muddles her metaphor as the end of British rule in America.
And finally, I'd like to mention Mr. Lazarow's point that Rip Van Winkle is but a small vestige of the pre-Revolutionary era, an old man relegated to telling stories of the past to children who will surely forget them. If that is true, Dame Van Winkle's character could still have a metaphorical aspect, but maybe one that doesn't warrant the significance we've placed on it. Perhaps the main point is that even though Rip Van Winkle has reawakened in a completely new era, people partaking in the constantly and frantically changing times see him as just stuck in the past.
I would like to agree with Will on the last paragraph of his comment. Mr. Lazarow brought up the statement that maybe Rip isn't a symbol of america at all, and that he represents something else, or possibly nothing at all.
I agree with Will in that Rip is a man stuck in the past. This seems to be the best way to describe things. He goes right back to his old habits after 20 years of absence. He finds that everybody had moved on without him and tries to regain his status by telling stories of his adventure. Rip is desperatly trying to gain attention, but is simply the only one left and is being left behind.
While I understood what everyone was saying about how Dame Van Winkle and her daughter were like Britain and Rip was America, there were a lot of parts in the story that were questionable. It makes more sense to me that Rip is simply stuck in the past, and does not symbolize America
Kaitlyn
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