Billy Budd
I don't have much to say about the movie at this point, but I thought it would be a good idea to get the ball rolling here.
One can see right off the bat that Billy Budd is the "handsome sailor" that Laz discussed in class. It is also evident that the rest of the crew of The Rights of Man are trying to protect him when the officers from the British Man O'War ship come aboard. He is instructed to stay up on the lookout perch so that it will be less likely that he will be conscripted. Predictably, this doesn't work out.
After seeing this scene it made me question why the other sailors will protect the handsome sailor at all costs. I believe that the handsome sailor represents the innocence of youth and humanity. Thus, the other sailors trying to protect him represents the older members of society trying to protect the innocent from the harshness of life. I'm sure as I watch this movie I will be able to refine this meaning more.. but in the mean time, does anyone else have any ideas about the handsome sailor?
Just a bit of foreshadowing...
Budd: "Goodbye to you all. Goodbye to the Rights of Man."
Officer [sharply]: "What do you mean by that?"
Budd: "Nothing."
This exchange shows that Budd will be giving up his rights and will be subjected to some pretty terrible things in his future as a sailor on the Man O'War ship. Budd, because of his youth and innocence, does not realize this will happen, but the British officer knows what will probably happen to Budd and I think that he fears more mutiny may be coming.
Elizabeth J
One can see right off the bat that Billy Budd is the "handsome sailor" that Laz discussed in class. It is also evident that the rest of the crew of The Rights of Man are trying to protect him when the officers from the British Man O'War ship come aboard. He is instructed to stay up on the lookout perch so that it will be less likely that he will be conscripted. Predictably, this doesn't work out.
After seeing this scene it made me question why the other sailors will protect the handsome sailor at all costs. I believe that the handsome sailor represents the innocence of youth and humanity. Thus, the other sailors trying to protect him represents the older members of society trying to protect the innocent from the harshness of life. I'm sure as I watch this movie I will be able to refine this meaning more.. but in the mean time, does anyone else have any ideas about the handsome sailor?
Just a bit of foreshadowing...
Budd: "Goodbye to you all. Goodbye to the Rights of Man."
Officer [sharply]: "What do you mean by that?"
Budd: "Nothing."
This exchange shows that Budd will be giving up his rights and will be subjected to some pretty terrible things in his future as a sailor on the Man O'War ship. Budd, because of his youth and innocence, does not realize this will happen, but the British officer knows what will probably happen to Budd and I think that he fears more mutiny may be coming.
Elizabeth J
20 Comments:
Elizabeth,
I definetly agree with you that Billy Budd is the handsome sailor. The perception I got about why the crew wanted to protect him was a little different. Since boats are at sea for long periods of time, the crewmen want someone to look up to. This is almost always the "handsome sailor" Not only does he have good looks, but he is a nice guy. He helps out all of the other sailors and is pretty much the ring leader. He is also extremely gifted on the boat. When Billy went on the British Man O'War ship the captain asked him where his duty was. Billy replied that he didn't have a duty and he could do anything because he liked to help out.
That is how I perceived the "handsome sailor" but it might change as the story goes on.
I think that the reason the crew wants to protect Budd could easily be both that he is innocent and that he is in a way a role model. At least in the way the movie presemt Budd, he is both boyish-looking as well as naive in how he reacts to situations (i.e. being so disturbed and curious as to why the man was flogged). Also, he is a role model becuase he skilled and respectful.
It seems to me that the entire crew likes Budd, but I'm unsure how much Jenkins (I think that was his name) liked Budd. Of course they fought at first, but they seemed to get along better after the fight. Then again, perhaps Budd's trying to win Jenkins's favor by standing up for him and ultimately trying to save him showed that Budd felt that Jenkins was continually hostile and that's why Budd tried to impress him. Also, at this point in the story, Cloggart likes Budd not nearly as much as he did initially. This could partially be caused by the fact that Budd is no longer "new" (one of the sialors said that Cloggart never liked him, even when he was the new guy), but more importantly by Budd's speaking against Cloggart in the incident of Jenkins's death. Now that Cloggart feels that Budd no longer likes him, he decides that he no longer likes Budd. Cloggart probably also feels that he has been "rejected," and so his bitterness must be partly due to his affections for Budd. That's probably why Budd's speaking against Cloggart hit him so hard and why he did not want Budd to be promoted to the position of captain to the deck.
--Caroline
The impression I got from Billy Budd was that he was extremely simplistic. To him, a punishment shouldn't be given without an explicit crime being committed, if a person is in danger, you help him, and if you want to know something, you simply ask. Life on a ship must've been pretty complicated, with all these codes, jobs, and different ranks and positions. Maybe they wanted to protect and preserve this innocent simplicity. It's probably very rare to find someone willing to act out of pure morality and integrity like Billy Budd did in an atmosphere run by fear of authority.
Tina, I agree with your opinion of Billy. Caroline, to add to you. I agree with everything you said about Cloggard and would like to add. I believe that Cloggard is not very self confident. He seems to be upset easily and the only way that he can prove his authority to everyone else is punishment. I think that Cloggard feels like Bud is now a threat to his job because Billy is moving up the ranks so quickly and is so well liked by all of the men that he might lose his spot. I am moving into pure guesses here, but in the scene where the captain is talking to the other man of high rank (I don't know his name) he mentioned that Cloggard had somewhat of a record before he came onto the ship. Maybe this prior experience is affecting his behaivor on the ship.
I think the purpose of the handsome sailor on ships is what Lazarow said. i.e. he is there because he boosts the morale of the sailors. He enables them to perform their jobs much more efficiently, etc.
But the Budd = innocence argument is a sound one as well. We can tell that Budd, as portrayed by his boyish figures and his almost childlike curiosity (asking why the man was flogged), is definitely the "child" of the sea. He doesn't even know his age but he thinks it's around 18. This seems to fit because he's skilled and experienced on a ship but not with the realities of life.
My guess is after he's posted to being the captain of the mast or whatever, he's going to become a more hardened sailor, but I'm not exactly sure how he's going to show that change.
Trying to pick apart symbolism etc. in a movie like this is challenging because you can't "read" the scene over and over again like in a book, unless you replay the small clip over and over again. Anyway, after seeing a scene once, your mind needs to replay it again and again for you to spot and symbols. This replaying, however, will definitely distort the perception of the scene at least a little.
I agree Albert; it is driving me crazy not to reference the text here.
But on to other things...Albert, I don't think that Budd will become a hardened sailor after a little while at his new post, that would completely undermine the whole idea of the handsome sailor. The innocence of Budd would be completely lost and thus the rallying point for the other sailors would be lost.
Also, I was intrigued when the captain said that Cloggard didn't want Budd to be promoted because he (Cloggard) feared perfection. This seemed to be a fairly significant moment... Cloggard is the antithesis of the handsome sailor. All the other sailors despise him and want to stay away from him. They also want to get rid of him and Jenkins even goes so far as to plan an attack on Cloggard. Cloggard is aware of this relationship between his personality and Billy's personality which is why Cloggard resists Billy's promotion and seems to hate him so much.
This may or may not be correct... it's just the ideas that I have thus far. Any other ideas?
I agree with all of you about how important Billy’s innocence is to him being the handsome sailor. Perhaps because of his good looks initially, Billy seems to be well liked and admired wherever he goes. Because of this, he naturally thinks that people want the best for him and are always looking out for his wellbeing. He has never been acquainted with someone like Claggart who intentionally harms him and others. He mistakes Claggart as his friend, and is so shocked by Claggert’s accusation of mutiny that he acts completely out of character.
I think that even after this incident, Billy won’t lose his trust and faith in the other sailors. I think that he fully believes that his shipmates and the captain are on his side and will defend him like his friends have always done. In this way, I think that Billy is in for a rude awakening. I have a feeling that his shipmates will forget what Billy has done for them all and abandon him while the captain will do what he thinks is best in order to avoid a mutiny…we’ll see…
When Claggard asked Billy Budd whether his actions were based off of ignorance or irony, it made me question whether ignorance or innocence played a bigger part in Bully Budd's character. He is innocent since he doesn't know how to respond to claggard when he exposes his evil intentions through the lies he tells. His innocence was the reason why he was ignorant of any potential harm that claggard had in store for him. I guess the two qualities coincide then.
Another element of the movie is the struggle to impress. Claggard's "slave" (i forget his name) initially just wanted to look good in Claggard's eyes but ended up falling deep into a trap. The other seamen don't seem to care about winning over people of authority on the ship; however deep inside, i don't see why they wouldn't actually want the respect. In the same way Budd was delighted to hear that he was appointed captain of floortop, I'm sure the others would love to possess some sort of rank as well. This is what confuses me though since i'm just assuming. Anyone any feedback? do the other seamen want recognition/respect or are they content with their status?
Ah, I think we need to watch the movie in its entirety before we can accurately analyze it. I have many questions racing through my mind: why do those spells of silence fall over Billy? What does Billy represent? (This movie is allegorical, isn't it?) Why do those spells of silence fall over Billy?!
Anyway, what do you guys think of Billy killing Claggart? The handsome sailor has heretofore been entirely innocent and friendly, a perfect protagonist. Claggart, on the other hand, had no redeeming qualities and was the closest to pure evil that a character could get (which might be a slight exaggeration). So, was Billy provoked, or was he entirely wrong in striking Claggart? Also, do you think Billy intended on killing him? I think we're still meant to completely sympathize with Billy, as Claggart was a truly awful person. I don't mean to spark a just-because-he-was-evil-doesn't-he-should-be-killed! debate, but I think it's really easy to side with Billy and want him to come out free from punishment.
One last thing: does Billy's innocence have any negative connotations? He comes across as naive, and the scene where he asks Claggart if he would ever want to talk between watches is kind of cringe-worthy--I was embarrassed for Billy. But maybe he's just truly good and pure and innocent, not dense.
just to clarify, ranna posted while i was typing my entry, and we totally touched upon the same ignorance vs. innocence dilemna! twinz.
Everybody has been skirting around the idea that Claggart is the antithesis of Billy Budd (perhaps we can even consider Claggart the antagonist?). Whereas Billy is all innocence and naiveté, Claggart is hardened and worldly (at least in regards to violence). While Billy hates to see a man flogged for who-knows-what offense, Claggart takes a sadistic pleasure in each flick of the whip. The smile on Claggart’s face grows and grows while he whips the men, and a look of disappointment takes over his visage when he has to stop at 10 lashes for someone he had hoped to give 100 lashes.
Someone mentioned that perhaps Billy reaches out to Claggart because Billy can’t stand to be disliked—I disagree. I think Billy doesn’t believe that someone would dislike him without provocation (and being Billy Budd, he’d never give any real provocation). Billy’s motive for offering to talk with Claggart “between watches” seemed very heartfelt to me; Billy reaches out to everyone aboard the ship; even after defeating Jenkins in a fistfight, Billy is able to empathize and befriend Jenkins.
Oh, and while we’re on the topic of latent homosexuality… Did anyone else get a “latent homosexuality” vibe during the scene in which “the Dansker” discovers Squeak (Claggart’s spy) talking with Billy Budd? I don’t recall whether Mr. Lazarow said the latent homosexuality was downplayed in the movie, but I felt that Billy Budd shirtless with another man was a bit suggestive of homosexuality.
--Danielle
Danielle-
I definitely picked up on the latent homosexuality running through the story. I agree eith you about the scene with Danskers. It was also present when Billy and Jenkins wrestled. I do not think that homosexuality is downplayed in the movie. You just don't see it in nthe actual dialogue.
So, what was Melville's point? He makes his audience understand why the captain hanged Bud. In that sense, he does not really condemn the need to follow orders blindly. At the same time, the rest of the film makes it clear that Billy Bud does not deserve his sentence. What does Melville want us to feel? There does not seem to be a clear cut answer.
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Yes, Billy and Claggart are opposites. The former is good and the latter is evil. Now that that's established...
I don't know whether the homosexuality noted in the movie is "latent" or just nonexistent. Yes, there are a couple scenes with shirtless men wrestling, but should we instantly interpret them as suggestive of homosexuality? Maybe there's something I'm not picking up on, but I think the theme in question was probably more apparent in the print version and lost in the book's condensation to film. I searched for articles on the subject of homosexuality's role in Billy Budd, and the people who argue for its presence seem to use examples from the book not seen in the film at all. Also, the homosexuality they discuss is among Captain Vere, Billy, and Claggart. To me, the theme failed to manifest itself in the film and is something that could be much better developed or suggested in print.
-Will
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I agree with you will-I haven't read the book, but I would assume that it has much more to do with homosexuality because I didn't see blatant circumstances where you would go right to thinking that. I'm not sure if the theory was developed when the story was written, or by scholars at a later period..because i'm sure you all would agree that there is a much different attitude on the issue today than there was back then, which may have either downplayed the idea of homosexuality or blew it up to a much bigger proportion than necessary.
Laz asked us yesterday why the hero normally dies at the end of a tragedy.
Definition: Tragedy depicts the downfall of a noble hero or heroine, usually through some combination of hubris, fate, and the will of the gods. The tragic hero's powerful wish to achieve some goal inevitably encounters limits, usually those of human frailty (flaws in reason, hubris, society), the gods (through oracles, prophets, fate), or nature. Aristotle says that the tragic hero should have a flaw and/or make some mistake (hamartia). The hero need not die at the end, but he / she must undergo a change in fortune. In addition, the tragic hero may achieve some revelation or recognition (anagnorisis--"knowing again" or "knowing back" or "knowing throughout" ) about human fate, destiny, and the will of the gods. Aristotle quite nicely terms this sort of recognition "a change from ignorance to awareness of a bond of love or hate."
hope that helps
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in the case of the billy budd story, i wonder what the author's intention was by ending the story with everyone dieing even though they had all just been enriched by Billy Budd's example. I know in class I said how this element of the story is what characterizes it as tragic; however, it also induces the reaction: "oh, so they all died. so everything that happened was pointless since none of the shipmates can continue their life spreading Billy Budd's story or living by his example."
any thoughts?
and yes will, great minds think alike
; )
I like how everyone died at the end. It just hits you like a hammer at the end. And Melville doesnt have to keep anyone alive because we witnessed the story. He intends to capture us at the end so we can feel bad for Billy Budd and maybe change ourselves to be more like Billy Budd.
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