Billy's Thoughts on the "Woman Warrior"
Bill M said...
This post is about The Woman Warrior, I just can't figure out how to start a new topic thingy.
I just finished the first chapter, No Name Woman, and there were a lot of interesting things in the story.
The woman telling the story is living in America and trying to cope with being "Chinese American". She is trying to take the best of both worlds and often looks to her mother’s stories for advice, which I thought was cool. One of her mother's stories (which was told to her after her first menstruation) was about her aunt who had committed suicide after being shunned by the "familial" community.
Four main things bugged me about this story even though I was enthralled by it.
The first thing is the aunt's unwillingness to give the name of the "baby's daddy" as it were. I don't understand why she wouldn't give up his name, I mean, from what the author tells us she was raped. Was the position of being a woman looked down upon so much that you had to obey a man if he said sleep with me? Then if he says, "don't tell anyone about this." the woman would have to obey that as well? Because of him, she got kicked out of her in-laws, disgraced her family, and basically caused the ransacking of her family's house. However, I felt the decision to take the baby with her was the right one (hopefully I don't incur too much wrath here) because she essentially spared him a life of ridicule, ostricization, and anonymity.
The second thing isn't too important, I just felt it was hypocritical to say that sex was never talked about, and then have an instance of her using sexually crude terminology.
Third, I didn't like the way she called the baby the little ghost at the end. Ghosts are the result of death, not new life. Was this child's life so hopeless that he could already be considered dead?
Fourth, I was confused and maybe even a little angered at the last paragraph. She says she is "telling on her aunt" which confused me. If your aunt was forgotten who are you going to tell on her, and why would you? I also was upset that she couldn’t understand where her aunt was coming from, and she is afraid of her even twenty years later. Does she fell she might be the substitute she warns about?
Please feel free to cut my arguments to shreds.
(Switch from comment to post courtesy of Danielle, so don't call Bill narcissistic for titling the post after him.)
This post is about The Woman Warrior, I just can't figure out how to start a new topic thingy.
I just finished the first chapter, No Name Woman, and there were a lot of interesting things in the story.
The woman telling the story is living in America and trying to cope with being "Chinese American". She is trying to take the best of both worlds and often looks to her mother’s stories for advice, which I thought was cool. One of her mother's stories (which was told to her after her first menstruation) was about her aunt who had committed suicide after being shunned by the "familial" community.
Four main things bugged me about this story even though I was enthralled by it.
The first thing is the aunt's unwillingness to give the name of the "baby's daddy" as it were. I don't understand why she wouldn't give up his name, I mean, from what the author tells us she was raped. Was the position of being a woman looked down upon so much that you had to obey a man if he said sleep with me? Then if he says, "don't tell anyone about this." the woman would have to obey that as well? Because of him, she got kicked out of her in-laws, disgraced her family, and basically caused the ransacking of her family's house. However, I felt the decision to take the baby with her was the right one (hopefully I don't incur too much wrath here) because she essentially spared him a life of ridicule, ostricization, and anonymity.
The second thing isn't too important, I just felt it was hypocritical to say that sex was never talked about, and then have an instance of her using sexually crude terminology.
Third, I didn't like the way she called the baby the little ghost at the end. Ghosts are the result of death, not new life. Was this child's life so hopeless that he could already be considered dead?
Fourth, I was confused and maybe even a little angered at the last paragraph. She says she is "telling on her aunt" which confused me. If your aunt was forgotten who are you going to tell on her, and why would you? I also was upset that she couldn’t understand where her aunt was coming from, and she is afraid of her even twenty years later. Does she fell she might be the substitute she warns about?
Please feel free to cut my arguments to shreds.
(Switch from comment to post courtesy of Danielle, so don't call Bill narcissistic for titling the post after him.)
posted by L Lazarow | 7:36 PM
23 Comments:
CAROLINE CROSS:
Firstly, I'm confused whether the aunt was raped or not. The author talks about her aunt being raped, but then goes into detail about how her aunt focused on her appearance to please her lover. I believe she says twice in the story that she wasn't given the details by her mother and that she never asked her, so it seems that her description of her aunt's pregnancy is just her own personal conjecture. Perhaps she doesn't know how exactly her aunt became pregnant, but I'll agree that it seems more likely that she was raped.
Secondly, I feel that calling the baby a ghost was indeed a very sad way to describe the child, but it is fitting to how the aunt viewed her child. If the aunt hadn't seen her child as a ghost, she probably would have let her baby live. By calling the baby a ghost, the author shows that her aunt believed that her child's life was hopeless and that's why the aunt drowned the child.
Lastly, I too am upset by the ending. I feel that the author tries to be symphatetic to her aunt throughout the story, but by describing her story as a way to tell on her aunt, the author concludes by almost sharing the rest of her family's opinion towards the aunt. She says that her aunt's death was spiteful because by drowning herself and her child in the well, she contaminated the family's water supply. By pointing this out, the author sort of justifies her telling on her aunt and not honoring her with paper clothes, etc. I personally am upset that the author doesn't honor her aunt more in the conclusion. I agree with the author that spite is bad, but the family still treated the aunt terribly.
--Caroline
7:39 PM
The narrator in the first chapter has conflicting motives for telling her aunt's story. First she says, "There is more to this silence: they want me to participate in her punishment. And I have. In the twenty years since I heard this story I have not asked for details nor said my aunt's name; I do not know it. [...] The real punishment was not the raid swiftly inflicted by the villagers, but the family's deliberately forgetting her."
The above passage demonstrates that one of the worst punishments in the Chinese culture was not to be remembered. Although the narrator's story about her aunt was part-condemnation and part-sympathetic-tale, the mere fact that the narrator wrote down her aunt's story was important. I don't blame the author for having conflicting feelings about her aunt. Having been influenced by her mother's negative spin on her aunt's tale, of course the narrator had a certain degree of disdain/anger for her aunt...
I am also unsure of whether the aunt was raped or had consensual sex. Perhaps the aunt paid too much attention to her looks and thus received certain (unwanted) attention from men/a man? (I'm not saying that the aunt was "asking for it," but perhaps the narrator is alluding to that sort of a concept.) I got the impression that the sex was consensual because the aunt "protected" the man who had impregnated her.
I agree with Bill that the aunt was right to take her baby with her in her culture. My impression was the following. The major problem with illegitimate children was that small villages had very intricate family lines, and having a baby with an "unknown" father meant that the baby could potentially marry a half-sister or half-brother. (I could be very wrong here.) Especially taking this into account, the baby would have had a very limited future. It would most likely have been shunned as its mother was, and would only have brought negative memories (of its mother's "sins") to all who surrounded it.
-- Danielle
Thanks Daniel, you have to teach me how to do that.
Caroline: The author was vague, so I really can't say for sure that her aunt was raped, and your right, the author probably can't either.
I'm almost done the White Tigers chapter and in my curiosity on the Fa Mu Lan tale, and Disney's perversion of said tale, I googled Fa Mu Lan...because when I think accurate sources...I think Google.
Anyways, Assuming this web site (listed at the bottom of the post) is accurate the author took some stuff out of the tale that I think enhances the story. In the Ballad of Fa Mu Lan as presented on this website, she uses the water gourd to periodically check back on her village and she sees the bandits harassing the village and conscripting the villagers. I think this would have improved the White Tiger chapter a little bit. The author also takes out the part of the story where Fa Mu Lan comes of age, much in the same way as the author did in the first chapter. I feel that both of these things would enhance the chapter a little more, as I am not currently done the chapter, maybe the come in the story some how and I'll feel like an idiot. the site is listed below and again I state in no way am I endorsing it's accuracy, but if it is accurate then feel free to agree or disagree on whether the story would improve or not.
http://www.fables.org/crown_thistle/famulan.html
In response to what people have been discussing in "No Name Woman"...
People keep going back and forth about whether the aunt was raped or had consenual sex... personally I think it was rape. In Chinese culture at this point, women were definitely inferior to men and thus, would do whatever the men said. So I think that the man forced the aunt to have sex with him (I believe this is implied at the beginning of the story...). According to everything I've ever heard about rape/abuse the victim often develops a bond with his or her attacker as a result of the fear of what the attacker can do and will not do anything to stop the attacker. This could explain why the aunt tried to dress up and make herself pretty for her lover/rapist; she had such a great fear of him that she would go to great lengths to please him so as to avoid incurring his wrath.
Though it may be disturbing to call a newborn baby a ghost, I thought it was extremely fitting in this context. Had the aunt allowed the baby to survive, it would have been an outcast in society and no one would have given it any recognition. In this sense, the baby would go through life almost as if a ghost... you can sense it is there but you don't really see or acknowledge it.
And to add on to what you said about illegitimate children, Danielle... basically any child in any society that is born to parents who are not married is a bastard and is looked down upon by the rest of society. This would have furthered the baby's ostracization had it survived.
I think in the end the author, much like her aunt, is conflicted by the culture that she was raised in so the author cannot pay the proper respect to her aunt. I think that the author wants to acknowledge her aunt's existence and preserve her memory so she writes down the only story that she has ever heard about her aunt. Yet at the same time, she has always been told how wicked her aunt was and that no one in her family respects the aunt or even tries to remember her. So then the author feels that she must back up and say how her aunt's suicide was a spite suicide and it brought ill will towards the whole family. Also, perhaps the author doesn't want to incur the wrath of her family by telling the story of her aunt, thus becoming the "substitute" that the "drowned one" pulls down into the water (last sentence).
So these are just my opinions... feel free to do whatever you wish with them.
These stories are a little harder to fit into the mythic hero description.
To respond to everyone about the aunt and rape- I think the niece was simply speculating on both. We can't really tell, nor are we supposed to. The niece does not know for sure, and neither do we.
Back to the hero thing- I will try to set this up.
Hero- 1. The aunt, though she is tragic in nature because she does not emerge from darkness.
2. Fa Mulan, obviously.
Guides- 1. Not sure in the first story
2. The two old people on the mountain
Journey- 1. Through pregnancy
2. Through her training
Growth- 1. I don't know how much the aunt changed during her pregnancy, but the niece was touched by the story
2. Her training helps her mature
In both stories, I am unclear of the exact moment of darkness from which the character emerges to defeat the darkness.
Also, I find it interesting that the stories parallel the author's life. She may be, in fact, the real hero. I really am unsure as to the mythic features of both stories, especially the first. So please someone help.
I'd like to start off with whether the aunt was raped or not. It is mentioned that in their village everyone knows each other and no one is a stranger. This would make it easy for two people to have a secret arrangement somehow. Also, it says that the aunt had dressed up, as to impress someone. If a male in society wanted to have sex and the woman agrees, then it is no longer considered rape. Also, if the aunt was raped, wouldn't it make sense for her to tell somebody so she wouldn't be punished so severely?
Elizabeth, I agree completely agree with your analysis of the baby being called a ghost.
Theresa, I'm a littly confused on your hero in the first chapter. Isn't the hero suppossed to be someone good? Nothing positive is mentioned about the aunt. Are you saying that main character = hero? If that's the case then i obviously havent' been paying attention and i'm sorry.
I'd like to bring up another example to support Elizabeth's point on the child being called a ghost. Silas, the albino monk in The Da Vinci Code, was often called a ghost. He was alive, but he was barely seen by anyone.
I found it kind of annoying that in White Tigers, she barely made any type of transition between her talking about her mom and then her telling the story of Mu Lan. I guess this is to parallel the point that the author makes. She says she cannot tell when her mother's stories end and when her dreams begin. Interesting literary tool, albeit an annoying one.
The ending, though upsetting, illustrates an understandable action. The author wishes to acknowledge the existence of her aunt, but can only do so slightly. She's forbidden to make any paper sacrifices, or do anything that might "honor" her aunt. This is akin to trying to support the homeless during the depression. You'd like to give a loaf of bread to them, but can only afford to give him a slice. Same applies here. She'd like to give her aunt paper sacrifices etc. but her familiy honor prohibits it.
It's hard to liken the first story to the mythic heroic archetypes. There simply weren't too many elements that were akin to the characteristics of the heroic archetype. The aunt had no companions, no guides, not to mention no journey. She was a lonely woman who died a lonely death. Heroic? Hardly.
The only message I could see the aunt bringing to later generations is don't have sex. Other than that, it's a whole bunch of other "don't's". These kinds of messages and lessons simply aren't appealing to people. People would rather have lessons of Do's rather than Don't's. That's how I feel anyway.
The story of Mu Lan is definitely a cookie cutter mythic heroic. The surprising thing is how early it can be traced back to. 500 AD according to one source. In a world where women served very few important roles, this story pops up. Could this reflect the reality that women served such an important role that they should be elevated to hero status?
Anyway, that's all I have to say. Except that I hated both stories because of the way they were told, and that after reading them, my soul felt dirty.
Thoughts?
I'm mainly going to try to connect both stories into the mythic hero archetype.
In "No Name Woman," I agree with Theresa that the aunt is probably the mythic hero. I don't think that the main character is necessarily the mythic hero, but in this case the aunt is the main character as well as the hero. The reason why I think she is heroic is that she is willing to be an individual and do as she wishes. If the aunt really was raped, then she is still an individual because she didn't ever tell the village that she was pregnant because she didn't want to, despite the village which believed it should know everyone's business. If the aunt wasn't raped, then she was still an individual because she wasn't afraid to have a sexual relationship ourside of marriage, even though it went against the norms of her village. Even though I am uncertain as to whether or not the author considers her aunt to be a hero, I personally feel that the aunt was a hero.
The aunt's journey wasn't just through her pregnancy, but to her own independence/separation and individuality. In this sense, I actually think that her child was the guide. Although this journey was definitely tragic and if the child was the guide, then it was an unwanted guide, I believe that the child could still be viewed as the guide. By making her mother separate from the rest of the village and secretive about her pregnancy, the child forced her mother to be an individual. Although her mother's individuality was dissaporved by others, the child led her closer and closer to complete separation. By the end of the story, both the aunt and her child "felt the same raw pain of separation." They were both so different from the other villagers, literally separated from them by being in a field, as well as figuratively separated, that their journey ended with complete separation, in death. I also feel that it is significant that they drowned, for they enterred into another element so to speak, whereas a death on earth would have connected them to the villagers that were still alive on the earth.
Perhaps the descent into darkness was when the aunt tried to fit in to the rest of the village by carrying on like she wasn't pregnant. This obviously would have been the easier route for the aunt to take, but she was too different and thus no longer accepted by the villagers, which they proved when they raided her house. She pulls out of her moment of darkness by leaving her parents' house and giving birth in a field and goes back to the "light," which is her individuality and separation from the rest of society, even though this "light" was destructive and depairing.
I have tried to fit the aunt into the mythic hero archetype, but I will admit that it is slightly awkward. Perhaps this is still a mythic heroic archetype tale, becuase they can vary slightly and don't have to fit completely into a set model. However, I almost wonder if this could be more of the tragic hero archetype. If this possibility is also valid, then the aunt would be the tragic hero, and if she was really raped, then her flaw was her willingness to do as others told her and her unwillingness to expose her rapist. But, if she wasn't raped, then her flaw was her nonconformist set of morals or her wanting to have privacy from the village. This archetype also better explains the aunt's death in the end, although mythic heroes can die too. The difference is that the aunt dies somewhat from the village's doing, but also her own flaws. If she were a mythic hero, then it would have to be just from the village's wrong-doing (I think?).
In "White Tigers," I think that the hero's descent into darkness is when she weakens as a hero by beind distracted and picking wildflowers in the woods. At that moment, the hero was off-guard and almost got killed by the enemy. However, the hero pulls out of this moment because when she becomes cautious again, she isn't defeated by the enemy.
--Caroline
Caroline:
I really appreciated your analysis of the aunt as a heroic figure. I never would have come up with the idea that her drowning in the well (as opposed to dying on land) separated the aunt from her peers in another, more permanent way; but, that was an insightful thought. I agree that the unborn baby serves as the aunt’s guide.
The one issue I have with your interpretation is that the heroine doesn’t truly succeed in any… mission. You said that the aunt’s journey is one of independence, separation, and individuality. While I agree that the aunt did become isolated from society, to a certain extent this isolation was forced upon her. Additionally, the aunt only succeeds in her “separation” by killing her baby and committing suicide—essentially recognizing that one cannot successfully separate oneself from or be an individual in her village (or, on a larger scale, Chinese culture). Although I do have that one reservation, I still pretty much agree with what you said… The aunt did not try to abort the baby and did not choose to reveal the father’s name, which was a significant choice.
(P.S. Perhaps the descent into darkness is when the villagers attack the house? It’s nighttime and literally dark… just a thought.)
Albert:
I disagree with your point that the aunt wasn’t a mythic heroic figure… Although certain aspects of mythic heroic archetypes are absent from her tale, I would venture to say that most (if not all) mythic heroic tales do not completely follow the formula.
Caroline brought up that the aunt’s unborn baby could be seen as the guide (and in my opinion, a companion) for the aunt’s journey. The journey was, to a certain extent, the aunt’s reaching a greater maturity and awareness of her world; by experiencing an illegitimate pregnancy and by feeling the scorn/pain inflicted by her peers, the aunt gained a unique perspective on her surroundings and culture (one which perhaps we were given too little of a view on, in my opinion).
I do agree with you that the story didn’t inspire me much… Most probably do prefer stories such as the one of Fa Mu Lan—stories with lots of participants and enormous goals being achieved. (I agree with you that “people would rather have lessons of Do's rather than Don't's.”) However, I disagree with you on the “message” of the aunt’s story. You said that the tale contained only “don’t do this” messages. I agree that in the village of the aunt, the culture would only allow for the story to be interpreted to produce those “negative” lessons. But because the story was written down for us, the lessons that we derive from the aunt’s hardships are also important.
The story made me think of the evils of mob mentality, sexism, and closed-mindedness. I learned that my culture is very different from cultures in different areas and previous times. Basically… although the story disturbed me a lot and wasn’t incredibly uplifting, I felt like I got a lot out of it. In the modern world of condoms, abortions, and birth control pills, the lesson of “don’t have sex” doesn’t apply quite as nicely.
Oh, this brings me to a question: can the lesson of the story be up to the interpretation of the readers? Or does the lesson of the story have to be contained within the tale? (As in, does the lesson have to be related to whether the hero dies or lives? Whether the hero creates a positive, lasting legacy?) Obviously the answers to these questions will affect whether or not my interpretations as to the lessons in the first story are valid.
--Danielle
"Except that I hated both stories because of the way they were told, and that after reading them, my soul felt dirty." -- Albert Chen
I just had to include that great analytic quote... no but seriously that can kind of describe how these stories make you feel.
Everyone seems very into discussing the aunt as the mythic archetype, yet not many people gave thought to the author, the young girl to whom these stories are being told. If you look at both stories together (as well as the other stories I assume), they actually tell the tale of the young girl growing up and learning to reconcile her Chinese heritage with the American culture in which she was raised. If you look at the stories in this context, the young Chinese-American girl fits the mythic archetypal hero:
#1: The girl has a mysterious/obscure background because her family is from China and the only things she knows and understands about her heritage come from her mother's (not always 100% truthful) stories.
#2: This girl is not invincible (obviously) but she has a substantial amount of common sense to know that her mother's stories are not always accurate and she must infer the deeper truth/meaning from these stories.
#3: The girl's path is not direct because she must interpret the deeper meaning of the stories to achieve her goal of learning about and reconciling her Chinese heritage.
#4: Though there are no dangers in this "journey," the girl faces loneliness because she feels isolated from her Chinese heritage because she does not know all that is going on with it and she is somewhat alienated from American culture because she is the daughter of Chinese immigrants.
#5: The girl is accompanied by her mother (Maybe?? It was the best I could do...); the mother tells her these stories about China to teach her Chinese values and history but does not recognize that her daughter is using them to reconcile her heritage with the culture in which she lives.
#6: I think the guide in this case would be the stories themselves. These stories show how other Chinese women have had mythic heroic journeys and how these women lived in Chinese culture. The girl uses the stories as her guideposts; she looks to them to learn and understand Chinese beliefs, values, etc.
#7: The girl descends into darkness by nearly giving up on her heritage, afraid that she cannot please her parents/ancestors. At one point it seems as if she wants to give up and forget her Chinese culture and fully assimilate into American society. (I'm not so sure about this one because I haven't read the whole book.)
#8: I'm assuming that by the end of this book, the girl has accepted her Chinese heritage...
#9: This is probably the only archetypal characteristic that does not apply... it seems highly unlikely that the girl would receive any physical injury as a result of this "journey"
#10: The girl can now help other Chinese-Americans to understand their heritage?
Basically 7-10 are speculation/educated guesses.
On a completely different, yet related note, I think that perhaps the aunt's descent into darkness was just after the attack when she goes out into the field. She is lying on the ground and can feel the baby, which she does not want, coming. She then remembers that sometimes women gave birth to their babies in pigsties, so she goes back into the barn (warmth/light) to give birth to the child. Then we deviate from the mythic heroic archetype because she decides her baby should not live in such a cruel, cold world so she kills herself and the baby.
This post was extremely long, I am sorry.
okay did anyone IMMEDIATELY think of The Ring when reading the description that elizabeth mentioned earlier: the well and how the drowned person wants to drag a subsititute down. SAMARA!!
*gasp*
Anywayyyyyyyy on a more scholarly note, that description definately incorporates an element mentioned by danielle earlier: one of the worst punishments in Chinese culture is to not be remembered. I think this idea applies to anyone. I mean, I'm sure it bothers anyone thinking that no one will remember them after they die. It kind of hints at the notion that the individual didn't make a significant impact on anyone's life enough to hold a place in anyone's heart or memory. I'm digressing since in this case, the reason the aunt was shunned from memory was because of her shameful act (woah i'm going off on a tangent again by saying this, but that reminds me of 1984 how people were erased from history when they sinned according to Big Brother). Back to focus: The aunt's spirit nonetheless is saddened and deeply depressed by the thought that her existance in the family was dismissed. This is where an element of human nature comes into play: when you go down, you want someone else to go down with you. According to Chinese culture, since the aunt was corrupt enough to drown herself, then she would probably be evil enough to want to drag down a substitute.
Ranna I totally agree with you about the Samara thing!
When you think that the aunt drowned her child because she was evil and wanted someone to go down with her, I took it as the aunt trying to protect her. I'm not condoning her killing her baby, but I feel like she was trying to save her from the shame she would inevitably receive from the village and from her family of being the illegitimate child of a forgotten family member. Because the Chinese, and many other cultures, are very tradionalized, especially when it comes to family. The aunt knew her baby would live a shamed life, and I think that goes along with how she described her as being a "ghost baby" or something like that.
I didn't read every one else's post so I'm not sure if this was brought up or not...but did anyone think anything about the woman comparing herself to Joan of Arc? It just reminded me of Huck Fin and how religious terminology was always used for a specific purpose...and because we're doing the two novels at the same time I figured there would be some kind of correlation between the two...
I seriously can't think of the aunt as fitting into the mythic heroic archetype. I agree with your point that all mythic heroic stories don't follow the guidelines we outlined in class. Lazarow even pointed that out to us. But I'm saying that there are so many characteristics absent from the story of the aunt that it's impossible to liken her to a hero. Caroline suggested a tragic hero. This would make more sense.
1. Her background was clearly described. She was the only daughter, spoiled, blah blah, etc etc.
2. The aunt was definitely foolish. She was vain, and carried on an affair.
3. Goal? What goal? There is no goal. Unless you consider getting her child born a goal. Not a very lofty one.
4. The only one that fits. The aunt's "journey," if you can call it that, is definitely lonely. She is shunned by her village.
5. There aren't any companions. The baby is an unlikely companion because he lives for what, half a day?
6. Guides are also nowhere to be found. Everyone hated her, her baby could hardly offer any advice. The only feasible possibility for a guide is herself.
7. Descent into darkness = drowning herself in the well? Labor?
8. Difference after "journey"... well, she's dead. She gained a "higher understanding" of the village? I dunno, I'm grasping, as are all of you. (No offense meant)
9. She dies. woohoo
10. Knowledge... uh... Don't have sex? Stay away from the well she drowned herself in?
Although you can liken those aspects to a mythic heroic persona, it's really tough to do so. You'll have to say, "Well, this really symbolizes that, which really symbolizes another thing, and then you have to take the opposite of that symbol and you have the mythic heroic characteristic," in order to try an relate anything in the aunt's story to mythical heroism (heroinism?)
So basically, I see how you feel about how it doesn't have to completely fit, but there are just too many missing pieces to call it anything close to mythic heroism.
I agree with Liz on how the author is actually the mythical hero.... yeah
Danielle:
I don't really understand what you mean by the message we're supposed to take from the story. The way I interpreted your post is that we change the lessons that were originally in the story so that they can fit more with modern society. Is this what you're getting at? (probably not :D)
Also, I still don't see any "positive" lessons. There's no message of "follow the righteous path" etc etc. I only see the don't messages. Can you illustrate some for me?
(o>_<)o
Though I can see how the aunt can be seen as a heroic archetype, I still have a few misgivings.
The story, to my knowledge, is essentially about a Chinese-American girl coming of age, with all of these stories told to her. I agree with Elizabeth, I think thta the narrator can be seen as the hero, perhaps better if we were to look at the story in its entirety.
Each story tells of some sort of struggle that a female had to undergo to...kind of stand out (bad choice of words, I know). By simply writing about her, the author gives her aunt a history, a "voice", while the story of Fa Mu Lan tells of someone who was able to transcend society's restrictions.
From what I can see, the author is pretty voiceless. She struggles to define herself, caught between Chinese and American. These stories, like Elizabeth said, serve as guides and lessons for her to learn. The narrator's journey, in my opinion, is to find her place in society as someone that she defined herself as, just as Mu Lan did.
Just a thought...?
In response to Albert (didn't read it until after I had posted)...
I think that there is definitely a lesson to be learned from the setory of her aunt, especially when read with the story of Fa Mu Lan.
And...personally, I think that the narrator's mother might have told the story to discourage her daughter from having sex before marriage. Or, in the broader sense, shame the family in some other way. I think at one point in the story, her mother tells her that now she is menstruating, not to humiliate them.
These stories are meant to teach "correct" behavior and values, and I don't think that discouraging premarital sex would have been seen as frivolous to the narrator's mom...especially after what happened tot he aunt and the family as a result of improper behavior.
Personally, I think that the aunt's story elicited a lot more emotion than the story of Fa Mu Lan because it was tragic. In my opinion, stories of failure can often times be the best way to encourage people to behave a certain way.
I'm overwhelmed, guys! This discussion is really good and there are so many things to respond to...
One, I'm kind of reluctant to pigeonhole the first chapter into the mythic heroic archetype, but I must congratulate Caroline on her thorough analysis. I don't have much more to add to that discussion.
Two, I found the No Name Woman story to be beautifully haunting, and incredibly well-written. The imagery, like the kind explored on page 13 with the round tables and rice bowls representing the "roundness" of family lineage and Chinese tradition, is captivating. Every picture, thought, and character was so full-bodied and really took shape in my mind.
Anyway, um, three. The story seemed at first foreign to me: I know little about Chinese-American culture, let alone Chinese culture in general. I'm also not a woman and cannot fully empathize with the pressures placed on the opposite gender. But I quickly started to recognize this story as an old one; there's a reason we try to include this in our archetypal discussion. It's a coming-of-age story, but mainly one of outdated, unfair conventions and societal repression. I was flipping between Tonys the other night [The Sopranos finale and the Broadway awards (please let me make this one bad joke tonight, please)] and the director of Spring Awakening was giving his acceptance speech for Best Direction of a Musical. He ended it by saying that he hoped that the themes of societal repression and subsequent adolescent despair wouldn't be ones he'd be winning Tonys for in the future, that they'd be done away with. So, the thematic components of No Name Woman aren't really alien to any of us.
Four, there was one part in the first chapter I was particularly struck by. The author discusses the aunt, after giving birth, being "one of the stars...without home, without a companion, in eternal cold and silence;" she was "flayed, unprotected against space." Not to fulfill my teenage duty and angst my heart out, but I have definitely felt that way, especially during this past year. I think I've grown a fair amount in the past months, and my coming of age, or at least this chapter of it, has involved a feeling of being at sea, or lost in space. As we discussed in class, we have an extraordinarily rigid academic system set up in our country. This very intricate and extensive structure has been built, but underneath it is a void. I think this void is one of true fulfillment, enjoyment, and some other human necessities we've come to neglect (gee, I wonder what my thoughts on the American education system are). I think part of growing up involves recognizing this void and trying to cope with it. I guess, in a phrase, I've realized how big our world is. So, I successfully empathized with the character in No Name Woman!! Will-1, Maxine Hong Kingston-0.
Five, and finally, I haven't ruminated on the second chapter much, so I don't have much to say about it. Good story, though.
Goodnight!
Well, this is a regular feeding frenzy. You guys are picking these stories apart like a shadowy horde of diabolical sharks having caught the scent of blood rising from the immobile flank of the 4th marking period. Anyway, I need in on this.
Reading these two chapters, I had culture shock. (Shocking, in this case, to be glossed as fascinating, but your milage may differ.) But whatever shock we might have had reading them, Miss Kingston had to deal with both the shocks of American culture at hand, and the Chinese culture clawing at her back.
I think it is too easy to say that she hates the two traditions or is denouncing them or anything of the sort. Her problem is reconciliation. She feels ties to both. That's why she can neither hate nor love her aunt and why she identifies with Mulan.
The story is told in a fascinating way. Alberto didn't seem to fond of the way the line between fantasy, reality and memory was drawn, but I think that is the most wonderful aspect of it all. Miss Kingston has a incredible grasp of mode. By that I mean, she manages to convey both the epic, tragic, traditional qualities of China and make a transition clear to modern day American without any explicit declaration. She does it simply by a nuanced grasp of language. The story is told in an almost stream-of-consciousness fashion from the perspective of the child. The thing which struck me most was how the tale of Mulan was told first-person. She becomes the woman warrior, she becomes her aunt. Like Huck, she's searching for identity.
I think in telling her these stories Miss Kingston's mother was imparting lessons. But I don't think they are necessarily intended to be didactic for us as readers. In many ways, the first chapter, the story of her aunt isn't told to provide to us a moral lesson, but to explain the second chapter, to make us understand the psychological strain she is under, why she becomes Mulan for a moment, and why she's always mistaking birds in the distance for that bird.
That plays squarely to the notion that at its highest level, the story is the mythic heroic journey of Miss Kingston herself.
Well. Since I already got up and am ready for school before I found out about the delay, I'm going to post.
I still don't see how the aunt could be a hero. I do agree that there are lessons to learn from her such as not having premarital sex and responsibility and all that good stuff.
Albert, I agree with you in your feeling about how the story flows. I found it extremely annoying that there was a severe lack of transition. It was hard to get into the Fa Mu Lan story and then back again at the end of the chapter.
Once I got past the transition part, I thought the second chapter was extremely well written. The author makes you feel like you are right there with the girl when she is alone in the forest, or sitting in watching the man and women teach a valuable lesson. I also want to point out the drinking gourd. It was a really neat tool to help connect the training warrior to her family back home. It also prepared her for who and what she would face when she was ready. It acted somewhat as a secondary guide to the old man and women to help prepare and connect the warrior aspect to the more human aspect of her being. She also really looked forward to being able to look through the gourd.
If anyone else has any ideas on the drinking gourd let me know
good morning! I just have a few random thoughts about woman warrior...
It was interesting to me how the aunt’s relationship with her village was the complete opposite of Fa Mu Lan's relationship. When Fa Mu Lan comes back to the village after her 15 years of training Kingston writes that she was greeted by her parents "as if they were welcoming home a son." After reading No Nome Woman this seems like the highest compliment a woman can receive. When a villager asks where Fa Mu Lan has been, someone jokingly says that she went to the city and became a prostitute. Whereas this could have been an honest assumption in the aunt’s case, nobody takes this response seriously when it is said concerning Fa Mu Lan. When Fa Mu Lan leaves for battle, she receives the respect that she deserves from the villagers who offer her their own sons to fight with her. The villagers comment on how beautiful she looks (even though it is only after she is dressed up like a man...) Fa Mu Lan's comment at the end of the chapter "The depth and width of Joy were exactly known to me: the Chinese population" signifies the deep sense of belonging that Fa Mu Lan feels in her community.
Also the carving of the words into Fa Mu Lan's back serves as an example of the power of language. These ideographs of revenge and the references to ideographs concerning the bird and mountain earlier in the chapter show how important language is in recording experiences like the life of her aunt whose story would not have been told otherwise.
Eh, I got smacked in class today. So, the No Name Woman is not a mythic heroic story... At least I tried? Well, can't put yourself out there without being the sacrificial offering once in a while.
Anyway, what I meant about how I could see positive lessons in the aunt's story was that from my modern/American/liberal perspective, I don't agree with the actions taken by the villagers. So the lessons that I took from the tale were different ones than the narrator's mother intended to give...
Although the Chinese villagers who knew the story would think of the aunt with disgust, I didn't. The Chinese villagers would derive the "don't" lessons that Albert mentioned. But because I prefer to draw my lessons from the actions of the villagers, as opposed to the aunt, what I got out of the reading isn't all... negative.
Basically I was just saying that what I get out of the story about the aunt is way different than what a traditional Chinese villager would have.
Danielle - I agree that you can take away a certain message from the storyconsidering the actions of the villagers. At the same time, it is a story and readers can create very individualized opinions so I don't think that Albert was wrong necessarily, but I know that's not what you were saying.
I am still a little confused as to how the speculations about the No Name aunt's pregnancy are considered "positive" after the discussion in class. Is it that she acts as a more significant example than Fa Mu Lan or is it that a pregnancy with an illegitamate child expected while a girl becoming a powerful woman is an anomaly?
Thanks!
Rachel. I don't think positive and negative are the correct words to describe what we talked about yesterday in class.
What we came to an agreement to was the two stories were disctintly different. The first story is about a single woman (for the time being) with an illegitimate child who gets shunned from society and kills herself. The second story of Fa Mu Lan is about this girl who is whisked away and spends years and years training to be a warrior and defeats all of these people and then when she comes home, simply sits down, has kids and goes back to normal, everyday life.
What I got out of the conversation that neither of these stories had a "positive" or "negative" lesson but one was simply more relatable then the other. It is very easy to see a woman in the same situation as the aunt. It is extremely hard to see yourself as a women defeating all of these people, running around the country side, and then returning home like nothing ever happened.
I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for or not, but I hope this helps.
I agree with you Kaitlyn. As horrible as the first story was, it is extremely easy to identify with. However, I think the Fa Mu Lan story can also be brought to some kind of recognition in every day life. If taken out of context, I feel like we could use it as an archetype as its own. There are tons of stories where the "chosen one" is taken away and prepared for their predetermined destiny. Right now I'm thinking of the Matrix..I know we decided that when stories don't fit the archtype, we should drop it, but if this very basic pattern was taken away from this story there could be a lot more to relate to (maybe not so much reality, but other fictional stories perhaps...) The whole aspect of the woman returning home and having her life exactly as it was is very strange at first, but you could compare it to many different occasions where someone had an extreme environment and had to re-acclimate themselves back into their original one.
I feel like everything else has already been talked about..so I'll go post my lovely selections made by Danielle..
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