I'm posting the entire Goodman Brown conversation as a new post so that it's easier for people when they have to study for midterms... It'd be great if you could delete your comments from the other page so that they don't clutter it up. I think it'd be a bit too neurotic if I deleted them under Laz's name. (Don't want to go all Fascist on you guys.)
Ranna said...
gahhh i really need to learn how to create a new post!
So today we started reading Nathaniel Hawthorne..sweeettt
Actually, no, i really do like his stories so far.
Both "Young Goodman Brown" and "The Minister's Black Veil" had the intriguing element of mystery incorporated in their plots. In the first story, the reader knew that there was something troubling Goodman; however, it wasn't necessarily distinct what it was. Goodman wasn't sure of his faith, and I believe the elder he was walking with wanted to guide him to a revelation that could help him sort out his feelings towards faith. Goodman was doubting whether faith really existed. This is not at uncommon thought to cross the minds of people, particularly in a Puritan community where tension is always present.
The main essence of the story behind "The Minister's Black Veil" was the concept of concealing one's sins. Mr. Hooper believed that everyone had a black veil upon his/her face and that no one on earth was ever truly able to entirely convey their feelings to another. He was trying to make a point to the community that sin and secrets are amongst them; however, the barrier between people is not tangible and outwardly noticeable (as was the veil upon his face). Sin and secrets are feared in the Puritan community; therefore, if we look at the black veil as a symbol of secrets and sins, then we can see its effects clearly. The children fled, the surrounding people conspired, and the one bearing the secrets and sins became inwardly lonely as a result of being shunned.
Rachel said...
Ranna -
I agree with the Black Veil, and the secrets and sins part is definetly exemplified in the ministers first sermon with the veil on. At the wedding even though it struck fear it made sense. Do we really know each other even if we are willing to make a life long commitment to anouther person? (Unfortunately it is rarely depicted today as a life long commitment but lets not get into that, ok?) But with Elizabeth, this physical thing was enough to stop her while most know of a veil but aren't willing to recognize since it is not a tangible object (not necessarily with just marriage but with all relationships.) The black veil definetly forces self doubt and questioning.
As for the Goodman Brown - I understand where Rhanna is going with her analysis but why would the face be similar to Brown's grandfather's? Does that go along with testing faith or is it something different?
Rachel said...
Sorry about the mispelled words, wasn't paying attention!
Danielle G said...
Ranna: About "Young Goodman Brown."
I don't think Goodman Brown was looking to the elder for a revelation of faith. (Unless you meant that the elder traveller wanted Goodman Brown to realize that you could only have faith in evil and the devil.) When he left his wife for the night, Goodman Brown thought to himself that he felt badly for deceiving her for what was admittedly an evil / mischevious / not-good purpose. From the moment Goodman Brown first speaks to the elder, I got a creeped out feeling.
The elder carries a black, serpent-like walking stick, and Goodman Brown shows a certain degree of hesitation from the very second he spots the elder. Goodman Brown doesn't start off the conversation by asking the elder traveller questions about faith and the catechism...
I think Goodman Brown knew that the elder was not a godly man, or at least that the elder had a certain potential to corrupt Goodman Brown.
On another note, I was really proud of Goodman Brown when he defied evil and exhorted his wife to do the same. I think I realized that Faith was going to be corrupted (or come close to it--we don't know which, I suppose) at some point during the travel during the woods, before Goodman Brown received his walking stick.
Remember how Faith said she had a bad feeling about the night? That was a beautiful, albeit slightly obvious, foreshadowing. The beauty in it was that I (and you?) couldn't tell exactly what it foreshadowed. Well done, Hawthorne, well done.
Rachel said...
Sorry about that, I forgot something!
Danielle - I do not agree with Goodman Brown defying the Devil (Goody Cloyse calls him the devil when he taps her and then he asks if she recognizes her old friend and her response is "is it your worship...?"). In the last paragraph, it is said that Goodman Brown changed and was no longer as sure about faith as he thought he was. Even though this is not the Devil’s ultimate goal for Brown just to lose faith, he was able to permeate into Goodman Brown’s life in some fashion.
In addition, he does not know if his wife ever did take the "communion" the Devil offered and that bothers him to the point that he cannot show any happiness. "But Goodman Brown looked sternly and sadly into her face, and passed on without greeting."
Brown does not only feel unhappiness towards his wife but he can no longer listen to the church services without hearing what was said at the Welcoming ceremony. In addition, when Brown tells about how he helped his father and grandfather and how he even helps the governor it creates a little fear and disbelief when you discover that the people who have a lot of power in your life are corrupt.
Brown's faith is destroyed because he no longer can trust the image of his ancestors or his superiors (even his wife) without seeing the devil within them. His faith is destroyed because he realizes the power that evil has on the world, how strong it is, and how it can permeate even the most "faithful". He eventually dies with a sense of hopelessness.
Rachel
caroline cross said...
Just to clarify things, I don't think it is Goodman Brown who touches Goody Cloyse with the snake-like staff, but the older traveller, as shown in this quote: "accordingly the young man turned aside, but took care to watch his companion, who advanced softly along the road until he had come within a staff's length of the old dame...the traveller put forth his staff and touched her withered neck with what seemed the serpent's tail." Since it was the older traveller, and not Goodman Brown, who used the staff, it is possible that Goodman Brown resisted evil because it was the old stranger whom Cloyse called "the devil." However, Goodman Brown still had evil in him (I think the story is mainly about how people cannot resist evil) because he didn't tell Faith what he was doing, and in the end he in essence doesn't fogive Faith for having been attracted to evil. His neglect of Faith shows that he has pride and labels himself "holier" than others, which are wrong feelings to have, especially when Christian humility was so emphasized by groups like the Puritans.
I have some confusion over who exactly the elder traveller was. Was he supposed to be Goodman Brown's grandfather or was he just someone who resembled Goodman's grandfather ("the devil...ah, forsooth, and is it your worship indeed?...yea truly is it, and in the very image of my old gossip, Goodman Brown, the grandfather of the silly fellow that now is")?
--Caroline
Rachel said...
Caroline -
The "elder traveler" was the Devil. I also question why he took on a similar image of Goodman Brown's grandfather but I believe it was to show that the Devil/evil/sin can be found in the most unlikely people.(?) I probably am not reading into it right, so anyone out there, please respond!
Rachel
Bill M said...
I agree with you Rachel. By taking the form of Goodman Brown's grandfather he not only shows that anyone can be influenced by the devil, but by picking someone close the Brown, he makes his point "hit home" more.
For example, when 9/11 happened we, the collective south Jersey community of Moorestown, were devastated, and concerned for the well-being of those in New York. This is because most of, if not all of us have been there at least once, and we know people there. Because we were so close to the city both geologically and emotionally, we cared more. However, people in Arkansas probably didn't care half as much as we did. This is because they didn't have the same emotional connection as we did.
For those of you who say, "That's nonsense of course they care!” how many of you have helped to rebuild a city in Arkansas after a Tornado? Or even thought about the 200 some people killed in the said Tornado. Probably not a lot of you, and there's nothing wrong with that, if you have no connection to those people there is less reason to care.
Therefore, the devils use of Goodman Brown's Grandfather allowed him to lower Goodman Browns guard, as well as theoretically letting him think that devil worship wasn’t so bad after all.
SPal1989 said...
Very true Bill. Now i think it it clear among the class that i do not understand things after i read them so forgive me for my elementary posts and questions.
Is there anywhere in the beginning of the story that says where he actually intends on going. Everyone had a bad feeling so we knew it wouldnt be a good traveling experience. But, in this long dream of his, did he intend to go with all the other converts to the congregation.
Where did he intend on going when leaving from the house? Just go and fall asleep in the woods?
If anyone could clear that little part up for me it would be much appreciated.
Love,
Scotty P
Rachel said...
Ok, first I don't think it was a dream. He says he awoke in the woods as if it was a bad dream but after he yells to Faith (during the Welcoming Ceremony), he cannot remember what else happened.
Second (and Third), he knew what was going to happen because he greets the Devil and - this would be the Third part - acknowledges that he believes he is the only convert. Obviously this isn't true, given the explanation and the face that the Devil decides to use as a representation.
Hope that helps!
Rachel
